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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#19861 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-June-04, 18:44

View PostPassedOut, on 2022-June-04, 07:41, said:

So far as I can see, we have locked ourselves into some tragic injuries and deaths for quite a while.

Yes we have. But my argument is that there are still more good people than there are evil people. I hope I'm right. If wrong we're all doomed regardless of which side of the political spectrum you align with. I agree with Peter_Alan that we need a culture shift. We need to shift back to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". And, in my opinion, "Happiness" does not include blowing away 10-yearolds with an AR-15.

#19862 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-June-04, 18:59

What seems obvious to me is that laws involving the sale of guns must severely punish the sellers, including personal sales and gun show sales with the use of undercover agents attempting buys. Not only should the illegal attempt to buy be charged but the seller also must be held accountable and the penalty must be severe.

There should also be no protection for manufacturers from civil liabilities.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#19863 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-June-04, 20:06

View PostWinstonm, on 2022-June-04, 18:59, said:

What seems obvious to me is that laws involving the sale of guns must severely punish the sellers.

If the law allows it, why punish the merchant? Just change the law. But I agree with your thoughts that an 18 year-old shouldn't be allowed to purchase a semi-automatic weapon and 375 rounds of ammo as did Salvador Ramos. Change the law. Don't punish the merchant who did nothing illegal....ill-considered maybe, but not illegal.


Quote

There should also be no protection for manufacturers from civil liabilities.


I don't agree with that. The manufacturer is not responsible for the lunacy of his customer. Should Ford be liable for the little 16 year-old prick in Texas suffering from "affluenza" who mowed down 6-8 people with an F350?

#19864 User is offline   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2022-June-04, 22:58

View PostChas_P, on 2022-June-04, 18:44, said:

And, in my opinion, "Happiness" does not include blowing away 10-yearolds with an AR-15.

We can certainly agree on that. But does "Happiness" include blowing anything away with an AR-15? With all its collateral risks to children's lives?
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#19865 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 00:07

America’s Door Problem

Apparently America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a door problem, at least according to the QOP. For years, the QOP has advocated for a closed door America, at least when it came to non-white, non-christian, and LBGT people. Now, taking it one step further, the QOP says more than 1 door is the reason for gun massacres.

Makes sense to me, taking this to the next step, maybe we should get rid of all doors, and people would have to enter buildings through windows and skylights. That should almost eliminate gun massacres compared to the QOP 1 door solution.
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#19866 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 07:22

View PostChas_P, on 2022-June-04, 20:06, said:

If the law allows it, why punish the merchant? Just change the law. But I agree with your thoughts that an 18 year-old shouldn't be allowed to purchase a semi-automatic weapon and 375 rounds of ammo as did Salvador Ramos. Change the law. Don't punish the merchant who did nothing illegal....ill-considered maybe, but not illegal.


The point here is that we are going to make this illegal.
We are talking about changing the laws.

Quote

I don't agree with that. The manufacturer is not responsible for the lunacy of his customer.
Should Ford be liable for the little 16 year-old prick in Texas suffering from "affluenza" who mowed down 6-8 people with an F350?


Here in the United States, in almost all cases, manufacturers assume product liability

There is a specific carve out for gun manufacturers that shields them
This change was introduced very recently. (2005)

They are a dramatic outlier, both with respect to time and scope
Alderaan delenda est
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#19867 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 12:19

View PostChas_P, on 2022-June-04, 20:06, said:


I don't agree with that. The manufacturer is not responsible for the lunacy of his customer. Should Ford be liable for the little 16 year-old prick in Texas suffering from "affluenza" who mowed down 6-8 people with an F350?



No, but should the car dealer that sold something like that to somebody like that be liable if the driver can't produce some advanced driving diploma ? Should more be the merchant than the manufacturer. If you sell somebody vast quantities of ammo ... admittedly somebody could pick up small quantities of ammo from several places, but make it illegal to possess more than n bullets.
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#19868 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 14:24

View PostPeterAlan, on 2022-June-04, 22:58, said:

. But does "Happiness" include blowing anything away with an AR-15?

Well I've seen video of hunters in Texas shooting wild hogs with AR-15s from a helicopter. That probably made the hunters happy. But it probably made the wild hogs unhappy.
https://www.youtube....h?v=8ir6LDRH7J0

#19869 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 18:10

View PostChas_P, on 2022-June-05, 14:24, said:

Well I've seen video of hunters in Texas shooting wild hogs with AR-15s from a helicopter. That probably made the hunters happy. But it probably made the wild hogs unhappy.
https://www.youtube....h?v=8ir6LDRH7J0

The analogy being that Red State laws make the shooters + terrorists happy and the school children unhappy?
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#19870 User is offline   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 18:43

View PostChas_P, on 2022-June-05, 14:24, said:

Well I've seen video of hunters in Texas shooting wild hogs with AR-15s from a helicopter.

Just what the Framers had in mind when they drafted the Second Amendment.
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#19871 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 19:10

View PostPeterAlan, on 2022-June-05, 18:43, said:

Just what the Framers had in mind when they drafted the Second Amendment.

Dunno about that. But I see nothing wrong with it if the hogs are destroying crops. Do you?

#19872 User is offline   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 20:18

View PostChas_P, on 2022-June-05, 19:10, said:

Dunno about that. But I see nothing wrong with it if the hogs are destroying crops. Do you?

I certainly don't think this justifies keeping assault rifles in circulation.
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#19873 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 05:17

View PostGilithin, on 2022-June-05, 18:10, said:

The analogy being that Red State laws make the shooters + terrorists happy and the school children unhappy?

Actually the helicopter in that video (N65AL) is registered to a guy in Lanesboro, MN.....hardly a "red" state.

#19874 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 05:30

Chas_P's war on pigs.
Just say no.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#19875 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 07:04

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-June-06, 05:30, said:

Chas_P's war on pigs.
Just say no.

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#19876 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 07:41

View PostChas_P, on 2022-June-06, 05:17, said:

Actually the helicopter in that video (N65AL) is registered to a guy in Lanesboro, MN.....hardly a "red" state.


After45 years in Maryland I still sometimes think of myself as a Minnesotan, so I would like to think that a guy from Minnesota that is shooting pigs from a helicopter has been thoroughly trained both in flying a helicopter and in the responsible use of such a weapon. Actually I would like to think that there is one guy flying the helicopter, another guy shooting the pigs. I'll take it as a given that the pigs needed to be shot, I grew up in the city where such issues didn't arise. I have not watched the video and I think I will skip it.

the point for many of us, perhaps all of us, is that we are not claiming that all guns, every single one anywhere, should be rounded up and destroyed. We are not even claiming that for assault rifles. We acknowledge that weaponry can have legitimate uses (again I will not venture into whether shooting pigs is one of those legitimate uses). We are saying that there needs to be far more regulation. People will quarrel, people will get upset, maybe get very upset, I guess people will have pig trouble, and far more often than not guns make the situation worse, not better. When guns must be used, turn the matter over to those who are trained and licensed. Even in the present environment, it is almost always possible to do this, and with greater regulation, this would become more true. We who think this way will maybe differ on some details, but basically the idea is to change the law in such a way that picking up a gun to solve a problem, for most people, would be unthinkable. Call the police. Call a lawyer. Call a licensed pig shooter. In short, don't think of yourself as Bat Masterson. Let the professionally trained handle the problem.

And the professionally trained are not always so well-trained? Yeah. It's another thing to work on. No one says it's simple.
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#19877 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 13:52

View Postkenberg, on 2022-June-06, 07:41, said:

After45 years in Maryland I still sometimes think of myself as a Minnesotan, so I would like to think that a guy from Minnesota that is shooting pigs from a helicopter has been thoroughly trained both in flying a helicopter and in the responsible use of such a weapon. Actually I would like to think that there is one guy flying the helicopter, another guy shooting the pigs. I'll take it as a given that the pigs needed to be shot, I grew up in the city where such issues didn't arise. I have not watched the video and I think I will skip it.

the point for many of us, perhaps all of us, is that we are not claiming that all guns, every single one anywhere, should be rounded up and destroyed. We are not even claiming that for assault rifles. We acknowledge that weaponry can have legitimate uses (again I will not venture into whether shooting pigs is one of those legitimate uses). We are saying that there needs to be far more regulation. People will quarrel, people will get upset, maybe get very upset, I guess people will have pig trouble, and far more often than not guns make the situation worse, not better. When guns must be used, turn the matter over to those who are trained and licensed. Even in the present environment, it is almost always possible to do this, and with greater regulation, this would become more true. We who think this way will maybe differ on some details, but basically the idea is to change the law in such a way that picking up a gun to solve a problem, for most people, would be unthinkable. Call the police. Call a lawyer. Call a licensed pig shooter. In short, don't think of yourself as Bat Masterson. Let the professionally trained handle the problem.

And the professionally trained are not always so well-trained? Yeah. It's another thing to work on. No one says it's simple.

I don't disagree with any of this, Ken. If someone can come up with a way to keep firearms out of the hands of those with evil intentions I'm all for it. But Peter_Alan asked, "But does "Happiness" include blowing anything away with an AR-15?" My link to the video of feral hog hunting was just my way of saying, "Yes."

#19878 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 14:41

WaPo said:

https://www.washingt...56121755aa98847

Henry “Enrique” Tarrio, longtime chairman of the extremist group Proud Boys, was indicted on a new federal charge of seditious conspiracy with four top lieutenants on Monday. The charges expand the Justice Department’s allegations of an organized plot to unleash political violence to prevent the confirmation of President Biden’s election victory on Jan. 6, 2021, when a pro-Trump mob attacked the U.S. Capitol.

Tarrio, 38, was not in Washington that day, but allegedly guided the group’s activities from nearby Maryland as Proud Boys members engaged in the earliest and most aggressive attacks to confront and overwhelm police at several critical points on restricted Capitol grounds. One co-defendant, Dominic Pezzola, of Rochester, N.Y., broke through the first window of the building at 2:13 p.m. with a stolen police riot shield, authorities said.

A new 10-count superseding indictment returned Monday morning charges Tarrio, Pezzola and three other existing co-defendants — Ethan Nordean, of Seattle, Joe Biggs, of the Daytona Beach area, and Zachary Rehl, of Philadelphia — with coordinating travel to Washington and the movements of the group around the Capitol that day. The group is also accused of plotting to foment a riot and storm Congress, action that eventually forced the evacuation of lawmakers meeting to confirm the 2020 election results.

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#19879 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 15:28

View Postkenberg, on 2022-June-06, 07:41, said:

After45 years in Maryland I still sometimes think of myself as a Minnesotan, so I would like to think that a guy from Minnesota that is shooting pigs from a helicopter has been thoroughly trained both in flying a helicopter and in the responsible use of such a weapon. Actually I would like to think that there is one guy flying the helicopter, another guy shooting the pigs. I'll take it as a given that the pigs needed to be shot, I grew up in the city where such issues didn't arise. I have not watched the video and I think I will skip it.

The helicopter is flown by a pilot working for a company that runs aerial hunting flights. The guy doing the shooting is a successful youtuber who makes lots of videos about his hunting trips shooting anything that moves that is legal to do so. The company has rifles available for customers without a gun, since apparently people fly in from around the world for the opportunity to shoot things from a helicopter. I'm pretty sure the only requirement is that the customer be able to pay for the cost of the helicopter service.
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#19880 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 17:32

View Postjohnu, on 2022-June-06, 15:28, said:

The helicopter is flown by a pilot working for a company that runs aerial hunting flights. The guy doing the shooting is a successful youtuber who makes lots of videos about his hunting trips shooting anything that moves that is legal to do so. The company has rifles available for customers without a gun, since apparently people fly in from around the world for the opportunity to shoot things from a helicopter. I'm pretty sure the only requirement is that the customer be able to pay for the cost of the helicopter service.

And the question remains, "What is inherently wrong with any of that?"

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