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ATB: dodgy 3N instead of cold slam

Poll: ATB: dodgy 3N instead of cold slam (7 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's to blame for missing slam?

  1. Entirely W (2 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  2. Mostly W (1 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  3. Mostly E (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Entirely E (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. System (pls give specific issues) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. The Bridge gods (2 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  7. Other (2 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

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#1 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 05:30



E's other system option over 2 would have been a major-oriented 2 feature ask, which could get max/min range, but wouldn't establish exact shape (eg diamond length).

After 3, W's options were 3N to play, 4 NF with wasted values that didn't look like a sufficient stop opposite a void, or cueing for clubs.
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#2 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 05:48

Jinksy 'E's other system option over 2 would have been a major-oriented 2 feature ask, which could get max/min range, but wouldn't establish exact shape (eg diamond length).After 3, W's options were 3N to play, 4 NF with wasted values that didn't look like a sufficient stop opposite a void, or cueing for clubs.'
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East's splinter is fine but he might correct 3N to 4 or even cue-bid 4. West's 3N seems right. If you swap his red suits, then nobody would demur. A superficial misfit turns out to be a perfect fit. Hence, nobody is to blame for missing slam. 3N would be unlucky to fail.

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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 05:50

3N thoroughly deserves void AKxx, xxx, AQ10xxx but could easily be right opposite say void, Jxxx, KQJx, AQ10xx.

It has the advantage that 3N will outscore 5 much of the time.
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#4 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 05:51

View Postnige1, on 2021-September-18, 05:48, said:

East's splinter is fine but he might correct 3N to 4 or even cue-bid 4.


I (as E) was worried both about partner showing up with a hand like this, and something like this but with the red suits swapped, where 3N is the only game with play (especially if we've cuebid on the way to 5).
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#5 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 05:56

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-18, 05:50, said:

3N thoroughly deserves void AKxx, xxx, AQ10xxx but could easily be right opposite say void, Jxxx, KQJx, AQ10xx.

It has the advantage that 3N will outscore 5 much of the time.


I'm not sure if this means you agree with the whole auction?
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#6 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 06:23

If you respond 2, what are East's options for agreeing in a forcing auction over the various possible rebids? If East could identify that West is (43) in the majors, that might be a path to getting it right. I suspect that this is not solvable with any certainty after the 2 opening without some very fancy methods though.

It is not completely trivial even after a 1 opening, although the system requirements for sorting that one out are considerably lower. This is basically something you accept when you go for a forcing 1 and natural 2, particularly when 2 can include 54M hands. Some hands you gain an advantage due to preemption but on hands where you need investigation the lack of space works against you. No system will reach the optimum contract on every hand, so if one of the worst hand types for your system still scores close to 50%, the system is probably not too bad overall.
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#7 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 07:26

I think 3 is waste of space bid with superfit of 11 cards. probably prefer 2 relay with precision. though i agree its not an easy hand to bid to slam
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#8 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 07:31

I'm not convinced anyone is to blame for missing the slam. From both sides it looks like the hands don't fit well outside the club suit but it just happens West has the top three spade honors for his 3NT bid which allows three losers to be dumped. Maybe East is worth another nudge with 4 showing slam interest but then West signs off in 4NT and probably goes one down when the defence cash four diamond tricks. Minor slams can be hard to find at MPs through fear of ending up in 5m when 3NT is cold for overtricks.
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 07:42

View PostJinksy, on 2021-September-18, 05:56, said:

I'm not sure if this means you agree with the whole auction?


I'm saying I don't like it but it is difficult. If you play 3 as this you may need to use it but I feel you would get more info from a 2 enquiry. Difficult for me to judge the auction as we would start with 2 (old fashioned precision) and now partner knows about the stiff diamond.
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#10 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 08:32

I count this as unlikely to find. I honestly would just accept imperfection and move on.
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#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 09:46

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-18, 08:32, said:

I count this as unlikely to find. I honestly would just accept imperfection and move on.


It's difficult in this auction, other auctions it's simple.
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 10:06

3 appears to eliminate the possibility of having an intelligent auction.
I don't like 2 either but assume you are playing a strong club, and I don't know those methods.
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#13 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 10:47

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-18, 07:42, said:

I'm saying I don't like it but it is difficult. If you play 3 as this you may need to use it but I feel you would get more info from a 2 enquiry. Difficult for me to judge the auction as we would start with 2 (old fashioned precision) and now partner knows about the stiff diamond.


We have a homegrown system over the 2 ask, which gives up some precision on shape esp in the minors in favour of finding out whether P's upper or lower for his range. That hurts on hands like this, helps (IMO) on those where you're mainly looking for 3N.
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#14 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-19, 03:20

View PostJinksy, on 2021-September-18, 10:47, said:

We have a homegrown system over the 2 ask, which gives up some precision on shape esp in the minors in favour of finding out whether P's upper or lower for his range. That hurts on hands like this, helps (IMO) on those where you're mainly looking for 3N.

You must have a way of finding out if Opener has 3 or not though. What are your sequences for that? Without knowing your system over 2, I do not see how any of us can evaluate the original poll question.
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#15 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-19, 09:22

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-19, 03:20, said:

You must have a way of finding out if Opener has 3 or not though. What are your sequences for that? Without knowing your system over 2, I do not see how any of us can evaluate the original poll question.


I think only a relay method has a genuine chance. Too many specific things are needed to know to count to 12 tricks. A-sixth. Void. Heart A-third. Too much, I think, for any more standard-ish methods.

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#16 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-19, 10:05

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-19, 09:22, said:


I think only a relay method has a genuine chance. Too many specific things are needed to know to count to 12 tricks. A-sixth. Void. Heart A-third. Too much, I think, for any more standard-ish methods.


Maybe....but if East knew Opener was 4315 or 4306, do you not think they might at least take a look? And at the very least reach the safer game?

We know the system is based around majors and min/max, so I assume after 2 - 2 - 2, 2NT and 3 would be non-forcing invites. But what should 3 be? Within the specific design parameters, is it not logical to use this to ask if Opener holds 3 hearts (and since there is space for it, if <3 if there is a diamond stop)? So while I agree with you in principle, until we know the system we can hardly decide what the issue is with the final contract of 3NT.
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#17 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-19, 10:48

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-19, 09:22, said:


I think only a relay method has a genuine chance. Too many specific things are needed to know to count to 12 tricks. A-sixth. Void. Heart A-third. Too much, I think, for any more standard-ish methods.



Standard precision, 2-2N(enq)-3(non min 4315)-4-4(cue) there are VERY few hands that are worse than a finesse for the slam and many where it's cold once you know partner doesn't have a red king and is not minimum. AQxx, QJx, x, KJxxx is about as bad as it gets.
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#18 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-19, 17:08

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-19, 10:48, said:

Standard precision, 2-2N(enq)-3(non min 4315)-4-4(cue) there are VERY few hands that are worse than a finesse for the slam and many where it's cold once you know partner doesn't have a red king and is not minimum. AQxx, QJx, x, KJxxx is about as bad as it gets.


I would like to have more certainty of at least a 50/50 slam.
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