BBO Discussion Forums: Do you open? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Do you open? 1st seat 11 HCP 5=2=4=2 KQ doubleton

#1 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 321
  • Joined: 2008-November-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:sailing, bridge

Posted 2021-October-01, 12:48



Do you open this hand (1st seat, both non-vul)?

I passed considering there is no A or T, and that the KQ is bad.
0

#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 931
  • Joined: 2014-June-01

Posted 2021-October-01, 13:13

11HCP, lousy suit(s), tight honors in short suit, no intermediaries.

If you open at 11s, yes.

If you start at 12, given there are no reason to upgrade this disgusting collection, no. Especially with S that you might mention later.

Make it KQT9x xx QJ9x Kx and it becomes much clearer.
0

#3 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,067
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-October-01, 13:17

I'd pass, at either form of scoring. If it's a partscore battle (for which this is the most encouraging vulnerability) I can bid 2 over their bidding later.

Swap the hearts and the spades and I open.
0

#4 User is offline   bluenikki 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 363
  • Joined: 2019-October-14

Posted 2021-October-01, 14:09

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-01, 12:48, said:



Do you open this hand (1st seat, both non-vul)?

I passed considering there is no A or T, and that the KQ is bad.

CCCC of 9.25

(Kaplan hated two-honors-doubleton)
0

#5 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 688
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-October-01, 14:15

the most important thing in bridge about opening is do you have a good rebid if partner responds? the answer is 'no' so do not open as other players have said.
0

#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,858
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-October-01, 14:41

Depends totally on agreements. My personal preference would be open it at match points but not at imps.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
0

#7 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,200
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-October-01, 15:00

No way would I open 1 with 2/1, at either MP or IMPs.
0

#8 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 506
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-October-01, 15:02

How about 2 Muiderberg if you play R20 rather than R19
0

#9 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2021-October-01, 15:05

mikl_plkcc 'Do you open this hand (1st seat, both non-vul)? I passed considering there is no A or T, and that the KQ is bad.'
++++++++++++++++++++
IMO: a poor hand -- not really "rule of 20" -- but 5 are a valuable asset -- so still well worth opening unless it would flout your partnership agreements.

0

#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,949
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-October-01, 15:39

Looks pretty revolting, we open most rule of 19 hands but I can bear to pass this.
0

#11 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 542
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2021-October-01, 23:20

I wouldn't, it's an eight loser hand with no lead directional value. Sometimes it will work, maybe you get to 3 -2 undoubled when opps have a part-score. Next time though, will you miss game when your partner bails out short of game and you have a decent minimum?
0

#12 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 451
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-October-02, 08:46

If I open balanced bad 11s then this qualifies; if my NT range starts at good 11s or at 12 then this is not good enough. There are a small number of systems where I could open this with a limited 1 and be sure that a 2 rebid is not necessary. Playing a typical 5cM SNT system with sound openers, it is a clear pass.
1

#13 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 451
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-October-02, 22:03

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-01, 13:17, said:

Swap the hearts and the spades and I open.

It is quite interesting that you write this. Fans of Zar Points will have noticed that this hand has 25ZP - the Zars rule for opening says that you open the hand with 5 spades but pass with 5 hearts.
0

#14 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,067
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-October-03, 05:16

Interesting. My reasoning was as follows:

The hand is very marginal, we probably won't miss a game by passing. Partner will take action on 'any' hand that will make game good, so we're protected. Conversely, if the opponents have a game I probably don't want to sacrifice and don't want to tell them the layout of the board, so passing can actually gain a lot on defence.
Now let's check the vulnerability. Oops, nobody vulnerable, the most aggressive vulnerability for partscore bidding. How will I effectively compete the partscore? Easy, I have spades. If the bidding peters out on the 2-level I just bid 2 and we're all good. No good reason to open then1, and pass it is.

If we have hearts instead of spades the exact same applies, but competing the partscore becomes a lot more difficult if they bid to 2. So I'd open to protect myself from the 6 IMP loss with a double partscore swing, risking all the other factors mentioned above (and two more not mentioned: firstly partner may well push to a sharp, failing, game and secondly I play 2NT as a catchall invitiational or mild GF raise, so we might land in 3-1 when the field gets to play in 2= if opps have the minor suits but not enough values to compete further).

I agree with the ZAR evaluation that the hand is probably stronger with spades instead of hearts, but I don't think that is the decisive argument for bidding/passing here.

1Note that passing might miss a profitable sacrifice over their 4, for example, if partner has the perfect hand. But it's a game of percentages, and I can live with the odds on offer here.
0

#15 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,858
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-October-03, 07:46

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-03, 05:16, said:

Interesting. My reasoning was as follows:

The hand is very marginal, we probably won't miss a game by passing. Partner will take action on 'any' hand that will make game good, so we're protected. Conversely, if the opponents have a game I probably don't want to sacrifice and don't want to tell them the layout of the board, so passing can actually gain a lot on defence.
Now let's check the vulnerability. Oops, nobody vulnerable, the most aggressive vulnerability for partscore bidding. How will I effectively compete the partscore? Easy, I have spades. If the bidding peters out on the 2-level I just bid 2 and we're all good. No good reason to open then1, and pass it is.

If we have hearts instead of spades the exact same applies, but competing the partscore becomes a lot more difficult if they bid to 2. So I'd open to protect myself from the 6 IMP loss with a double partscore swing, risking all the other factors mentioned above (and two more not mentioned: firstly partner may well push to a sharp, failing, game and secondly I play 2NT as a catchall invitiational or mild GF raise, so we might land in 3-1 when the field gets to play in 2= if opps have the minor suits but not enough values to compete further).

I agree with the ZAR evaluation that the hand is probably stronger with spades instead of hearts, but I don't think that is the decisive argument for bidding/passing here.

1Note that passing might miss a profitable sacrifice over their 4, for example, if partner has the perfect hand. But it's a game of percentages, and I can live with the odds on offer here.


The value of opening IMO is the interference - its not about bidding games but stealing space.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
0

#16 User is offline   mikestar13 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 642
  • Joined: 2010-October-27
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Bernardino, CA USA

Posted 2021-October-04, 10:31

If our partnership standard is rule of 20, I pass this in a heartbeat. While the hand technically qualifies, look at all the negative factors. KQ has already been aptly described -- it is quite horrible, one negative factor for the insufficiently guarded queen, another for the inflexibility caused by the absence of small cards. Now let's look at those long suits, headed by the queen and jack respectively, with neither protected by a higher honor nor supported by a ten. Two more negatives, I can reasonably add another because only two of my five honors are in my long suits (with nine cards in two suits, expectation is three honors to the nearest whole number, and I'd expect to see four rather more often than two. In my experience, a negative factor is about -1/3 of a point (a positive is about +1/3 -- and this hand has none). So adding my adjusted 9.333 HCP to my nine cards in the long suits, this hand is a good rule of 18 opening, but because of the tactical value of the fifth spade, I'd stretch and open 1 if our standard is rule of 19, but a partner who chose to pass this hunk of junk wouldn't even get a raised eyebrow from me. Of course it would be a mandatory third seat opening.
0

#17 User is offline   morecharac 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 163
  • Joined: 2020-September-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Cyclothymic dilettantism

Posted 2021-October-06, 21:22

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-01, 12:48, said:



Do you open this hand (1st seat, both non-vul)?

I passed considering there is no A or T, and that the KQ is bad.

I cohabitate with my bridge partner.

I like cohabitating with my bridge partner.

So no, I would not open this hand in first seat.
0

#18 User is offline   spade7 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 41
  • Joined: 2009-August-08

Posted 2021-October-07, 01:05

This is a matter of partnership agreement. With one partner I would, with another partner I wouldn't.
0

#19 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2021-October-08, 09:34

View Postspade7, on 2021-October-07, 01:05, said:

This is a matter of partnership agreement. With one partner I would, with another partner I wouldn't.
On the cusp, it's a matter of judgement :)
If partnership agreement would tolerate opening 1, then that's what I'd do :)
0

#20 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,013
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2021-October-08, 10:40

I play a method that opens virtually all 11 counts

I pass

Calling this an 11 count is honouring form over substance.

We have no aces

We have no good spot cards

Our two long suits are very weak, both in hcp and texture

Almost half our hcp are in the form of KQ tight, which is worth fewer than 5 hcp at this juncture (they may evaluate upwards should partner suggest long hearts, but at this stage we need to be cautious)

If we open 1S and partner bids a forcing 1N, as I play (perhaps not optimal these days), rebidding 2D on Jxxx, and fearing a preference to spades, makes me very uncomfortable

Finally, should this be our hand, partner will be bidding and I dont expect much difficulty.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
1

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users