BBO Discussion Forums: Bid 6 Spades Without Gadgets - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Bid 6 Spades Without Gadgets

#1 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 652
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-15, 18:07

I was watching a intermediate/advanced game and this hand appeared. The traveller the next day showed that less than 40% reached 6, with one reaching the worse contract of 6NT (-2) at IMPS.

For a minute you are not a expert or very advanced and playing with a pick-up partner and are using a basic system such as Vanilla 2/1, SAYC or Acol, and only have Blackwood or Roman Key Blackwood on your convention card, what do you think is the best or right auction to get to 6? (Some of the ones that I saw were not good, just gambling.)

White vs. Red. IMPS. No opponents bidding. West Dealer.


0

#2 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,685
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-15, 18:19

Playing 2/1:

1 - 2
2 - 2

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.
1

#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 652
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-15, 18:27

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-February-15, 18:19, said:

Playing 2/1:

1 - 2
2 - 2

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.


Yes, I agree it is easy with 2/1 but many players outside USA do not play this system, and many older intermediate players still play SAYC style even if they come from USA. I guess on intermediate/advanced random games I see less than 20% play 2/1.
0

#4 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,685
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-15, 18:43

With SAYC East jumps to 3 (forcing) instead of 2, after which you should reach the same spot.
1

#5 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,528
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-15, 19:29

I'm having difficulties imagining an auction that doesn't end up in at least 6. Assuming the pair plays RKC, then they should be able to stop in 6. Without RKC, I suppose they might end up in 7.

Maybe they might stop in game if East responds 1NT instead of 2 since this is an intermediate/advanced game. Otherwise, it is 100% West's problem for not reaching slam unless East goes completely off the rails.
0

#6 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 483
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2022-February-15, 21:17

 smerriman, on 2022-February-15, 18:19, said:

Playing 2/1:

1 - 2
2 - 2

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.

I don't disagree with the auction, but how many hcp do you need to bid 2 in 2/1?
0

#7 User is offline   apollo1201 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 918
  • Joined: 2014-June-01

Posted 2022-February-16, 00:56

Without gadget at all

1S - 2D
2H - 4S (minimum with fit)
6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I canít ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)
0

#8 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2022-February-16, 02:48

 mw64ahw, on 2022-February-15, 21:17, said:

I don't disagree with the auction, but how many hcp do you need to bid 2 in 2/1?
An opening hand, though be wary bidding 2/1 with shapely 10-point hands since partner likely also has a shapely minimum with the shape going in the other direction. This hand more than qualifies. In 2/1 the alternatives are also not good, you'd have to bid 1NT (either forcing or semiforcing) after which partner will never play you for this great hand.

 apollo1201, on 2022-February-16, 00:56, said:

Without gadget at all

1S - 2D
2H - 4S (minimum with fit)
6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I canít ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)
I would never double jump like that in 2/1. Also a jump should show a hand extremely unsuitable for slam, not just any HCP minimum. With two aces, room to set up the diamond suit and ruffing value this hand will make a very good dummy in slam.
0

#9 User is offline   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2022-February-16, 02:59

 smerriman, on 2022-February-15, 18:43, said:

With SAYC East jumps to 3 (forcing) instead of 2, after which you should reach the same spot.


3 is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3 here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.
0

#10 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 483
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2022-February-16, 04:10

 DavidKok, on 2022-February-16, 02:48, said:

An opening hand, though be wary bidding 2/1 with shapely 10-point hands since partner likely also has a shapely minimum with the shape going in the other direction. This hand more than qualifies. In 2/1 the alternatives are also not good, you'd have to bid 1NT (either forcing or semiforcing) after which partner will never play you for this great hand.

I would never double jump like that in 2/1. Also a jump should show a hand extremely unsuitable for slam, not just any HCP minimum. With two aces, room to set up the diamond suit and ruffing value this hand will make a very good dummy in slam.

For me SAYC is 11+ and 2/1 13+ hcp shaving a point off in certain circumstances. In this case 12+ is justified given the 8 card fit. In general though do you want to arrive at 3NT after a GF on a misfit with less than 24hcp between you.

I would make the double-jump in this case; it describes the strength and support opposite a minimum opener. If partner has the strength to move ahead as in this case then I move ahead.
0

#11 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 483
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2022-February-16, 04:12

 AL78, on 2022-February-16, 02:59, said:

3 is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3 here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

Given 2 can be invitational, why not have 3 as SI, but I guess it depends which way round you want to play.
0

#12 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,528
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-16, 04:29

 apollo1201, on 2022-February-16, 00:56, said:

Without gadget at all

1S - 2D
2H - 4S (minimum with fit)
6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I canít ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)

Not addressing the 4 rebid by responder, surely you can bid regular 4NT Blackwood, and sign off in 5 if you are missing 2 aces.
0

#13 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2022-February-16, 04:48

 mw64ahw, on 2022-February-16, 04:10, said:

For me SAYC is 11+ and 2/1 13+ hcp shaving a point off in certain circumstances. In this case 12+ is justified given the 8 card fit. In general though do you want to arrive at 3NT after a GF on a misfit with less than 24hcp between you.

I would make the double-jump in this case; it describes the strength and support opposite a minimum opener. If partner has the strength to move ahead as in this case then I move ahead.
Both of these are mistakes. The first line is too much bean counting. In 2/1 you have to choose between showing a limited hand with 1NT (or a jump to 3m if appropriate), or starting a GF. Hands with ~12 HCP have to be judged on their own merits, but frequently I'd rather overbid and have a comfortable 2/1 auction than underbid and have to catch up for multiple rounds. Also, if you have a bit of shape, 24 HCP 3NT bids have a tendency of making (at least a sufficiently large percentage of the time). It is also not writ in stone that partner has a minimum. Meanwhile you need to move heaven and earth to get to game with a balanced 13 opposite your 1NT bid - it's just poor odds.

The double jump is ridiculous, we have an excellent hand for slam and we're eating two levels of bidding space. Partner doesn't even know our shape yet! I would consider jumping to 4 with something like Qxx, xx, KQJxx, KJx, but not many other hands.
0

#14 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,561
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2022-February-16, 05:00

 AL78, on 2022-February-16, 02:59, said:

3 is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3 here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

In Acol this is usually played as invitational, but in SAYC, 2 already showed a hand that at least wants to invite opposite a 12-14 bal (in some interpretations of SAYC it even promises a GF opposite a 12-14 bal), so even if 3 just shows a tiny bit of extras, it must be GF.
If you don't have an agreement, you don't have an illegal agreement. Except in the ACBL, where apparently you can have an agreement even if you don't have one :) --- Blackshoe
0

#15 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,603
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-16, 05:23

 AL78, on 2022-February-16, 02:59, said:

3 is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3 here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

Facing a 2/1 response, it is forcing, the 3S bid showes 15+, the 2/1 showes 10+. hence the partnership has 25+.
And even in Acol, it should be forcing.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#16 User is offline   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2022-February-16, 06:32

 P_Marlowe, on 2022-February-16, 05:23, said:

Facing a 2/1 response, it is forcing, the 3S bid showes 15+, the 2/1 showes 10+. hence the partnership has 25+.
And even in Acol, it should be forcing.


Yes I understand that a jump rebid by opener opposite 2/1 is game forcing. I was referring to the auction:

1 - 2
2 - 3

which I play as invitational in Acol and 5CM without 2/1 GF.

1 - 2
2 - 2

is a minimum 2/1 giving preference. Opener can bid on with a better than minimum hand.
0

#17 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,985
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2022-February-16, 07:59

In SA the jump preference by responder after a 2/1 has always been GF. SA has historically always had a lot more forcing sequences than Acol.

Invitational spade raises in SA are either jump raise immediately (1s-3s) once limit raises were adopted (in ancient times jump raise was forcing), or just give a 2/1 followed by a non-jump preference. Or go through 1nt forcing if that is available.


0

#18 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 483
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2022-February-16, 08:08

 DavidKok, on 2022-February-16, 04:48, said:

Both of these are mistakes. The first line is too much bean counting. In 2/1 you have to choose between showing a limited hand with 1NT (or a jump to 3m if appropriate), or starting a GF. Hands with ~12 HCP have to be judged on their own merits, but frequently I'd rather overbid and have a comfortable 2/1 auction than underbid and have to catch up for multiple rounds. Also, if you have a bit of shape, 24 HCP 3NT bids have a tendency of making (at least a sufficiently large percentage of the time). It is also not writ in stone that partner has a minimum. Meanwhile you need to move heaven and earth to get to game with a balanced 13 opposite your 1NT bid - it's just poor odds.

The double jump is ridiculous, we have an excellent hand for slam and we're eating two levels of bidding space. Partner doesn't even know our shape yet! I would consider jumping to 4 with something like Qxx, xx, KQJxx, KJx, but not many other hands.

You have to have some guidelines to start and then adjust according to experience, but with 24 combined hcp I think the probability of a 3NT game slips below 50℅. When you have say a running suit where extra tricks can be counted then experience shows you can shave the odd point. I struggle with partners that make a light GF with a good suit and we end up in 3NT on a misfit going down when going via 1NT ends in a makeable contract. Even with 24+ there is still the challenge of the play.

As to the double-jump; I find a lot of club players make this bid when gadget-less which is the case here and the smart openers will move on to the slam. With a partner who is comfortable with cue-bidding and knows that a 3 rebid by opener is a SI then you can take the slow route.
0

#19 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,603
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-February-16, 10:25

<snip>
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#20 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,135
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2022-February-16, 11:28

 AL78, on 2022-February-16, 06:32, said:

Yes I understand that a jump rebid by opener opposite 2/1 is game forcing. I was referring to the auction:

1 - 2
2 - 3

which I play as invitational in Acol and 5CM without 2/1 GF.

1 - 2
2 - 2

is a minimum 2/1 giving preference. Opener can bid on with a better than minimum hand.


That is what I understood in my limited exposure to Acol. And is the same in Italian 4-card majors.
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users